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Welcome to the Village pump copyright section

This Wikimedia Commons page is used for general discussions relating to copyright and license issues, and for discussions relating to specific files' copyright issues. Discussions relating to specific copyright policies should take place on the talk page of the policy, but may be advertised here. Recent sections with no replies for 7 days and sections tagged with {{section resolved|1=~~~~}} may be archived; for old discussions, see the archives.

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Jim Davis' early work (Gnorm Gnat, Jon, Garfield)

I'm writing to about an issue that came up a few years ago, in September 2021. User:PseudoSkull had questions. I have answers!

Jim Davis is well-known for his comic strip Garfield. Before writing Garfield, Davis wrote another strip, Gnorm Gnat. Gnorm Gnat was not very successful, and was not picked up by any syndicate. It was only published in the Pendleton Times from 1973 to 1975. Davis followed up the strip with a new one called Jon, about a man named Jon Arbuckle and his cat, Garfield, beginning in 1976. The strip was renamed Garfield in 1977 and was published exclusively in the Times until February 1978, when it was picked up for syndication.

PsuedoSkull asked if the original comic strips were in the public domain due a lack of notice, asking:

1. Did the original newspapers have a copyright notice?
2. If the newspapers did have a notice, could the comics be in the public domain (if Davis had them placed as advertisements)?

I think that it's unlikely that the comics could be considered an "advertisement." The good news is that it doesn't matter! I checked the relevant issues of the Pendleton Times, which is available on newspapers.com (you can read it for free if you have a Wikipedia Library account). Except for the final Garfield (announcing that it had been picked up for syndication), none of the strips have a copyright notice, and there is in no case a copyright notice anywhere else for the paper as a whole.

All the Gnorm Gnat, Jon and Garfield strips published from 1973 to 1977 in the Times are PD-US-no notice, and the Garfield strips from early 1978 are PD-US-1978-89.

I have already uploaded all the Gnorm Gnat strips (see Category:Gnorm Gnat comic strips). I will shortly upload the Jon and Pendleton Garfield strips. D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 06:35, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@D. Benjamin Miller: Thanks so much for this! Great to see that this is finally being done (I've been meaning to do this myself, having gotten in touch with a review channel who revealed the comic strips for the first time in 2021 for the files). With Mickey Mouse being the hype of the month right now, I bet people will find it cute that Garfield is also a public-domain character (at least in his 1977-8 form). PseudoSkull (talk) 06:40, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Files uploading now to Category:Jon (comic strip) and Category:Garfield (1977–78 comic strip).

However, I don't think it's accurate to say that the comics were "revealed for the first time [since the 1970s]" in 2021. As far as I'm aware, the Times issues were never lost. They were always in the local libraries and accessible to the public, and I suspect the complete back issues were already on newspapers.com for years (as they are now). It's just that nobody had bothered to really look (and take the time to write about them).

Please go ahead and update the appropriate pages/categorize the files as you see fit! D. Benjamin Miller (talk) 07:33, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Charles III official portrait

Cabinet Office released it's statement for the official portrait of King Charles III released for public authorities. I can assume licensing with {{OGL3}} and UK Crown bodies it could be compatible. Ferret-o-meter (talk) 11:37, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I can't see any evidence of release under OGL at this time. They may choose to release the image under a free licence but I have yet to see it. There are some complicating factors in that UK Government works are often (but not always) released under OGL but Royal Household works are not. We will need to wait for more copyright information before identifying if we can upload here. From Hill To Shore (talk) 12:41, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Does anyone send a request for COM:VRT permission that apply from PA Images for King Charles III's photo? Ferret-o-meter (talk) 09:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. We can only involve COM:VRT if we know who the copyright holder is. Have you managed to confirm the copyright owner or are you guessing? From Hill To Shore (talk) 09:43, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Please contact the copyright owner Hugo Burnand/Royal Household 2024/Cabinet Office/PA Wire to get VRTS permission ({{Permission pending}}). Ferret-o-meter (talk) 11:27, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

First, which one is the copyright holder (or is it a joint copyright owned by all four)? Second, I'm not going to contact them for you - if you want to write to them yourself, that is your choice. From Hill To Shore (talk) 11:37, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

PD-Turkey

Hi! I have been translating {{PD-Turkey/en}} and would ask for advice regarding the word 'owner' (particularly the fourth line about legal persons). Does this refer to the physical owner of the work or the creator/author? Should the text be rephrased by replacing 'owner' with 'author'? –TadejM ^(t/p) 15:41, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@TadejM: Probably author. See also en:Copyright law of Turkey.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 15:53, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt reply. I am also going to update the English version. --TadejM ^(t/p) 16:52, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

@TadejM: You're welcome. You forgot to ping me.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 12:48, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

My apologies. I'm not used to constantly pinging participants in discussions. --TadejM ^(t/p) 12:54, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

You shouldn't need to ping anyone. Jeff G. can subscribe to this discussion if he wants to keep abreast if it. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:04, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

@TadejM: Since we got mw:Extension:Echo, standard practice here has been to ping anyone you reply to or mention. I like getting the pings and occasional user talk page messages, so I request them as a courtesy. I generally don't subscribe to topics on pages on my watchlist, as that's more of a headache than I would like. I can't subscribe to level 3 topics on m:srg because they're level 3, and no one will budge on that.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 01:15, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Photos / Screenshots from the "Apache" recording of the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster

Hey everyone, I'm bringing up this photo hosted on the Commons in particular: "ColumbiaFLIR2003.png", which is a frame from this source video on YouTube, posted back in 2008. I wanted to make this image the infobox photo for the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster page on Wikipedia, as it depicts the most historically significant and memorable part of this tragedy. However, from prior mentions on Wikipedia talk pages and in the Commons' Village Pump, there's concerns about its "freeness" to use on Wikipedia and other sites, specifically because the helicopter's camera was operated by a foreign crew, either Danish (as per the CAIB Report Vol. 1), or Dutch (as per YouTube and Reddit comments and "public knowledge", as well as an unsourced article on the aviationist.com). Still frames from the original Apache recording were used and presented in the CAIB report Vol. 1 and 3 (published in August 2003), the Columbia Crew Survival Investigation report (2008), and the Loss of Signal Aeromedical Investigation Report (2014). All three of these are NASA documents authored by government employees, and none of them mention a linkable source for the original Apache video, besides that it was a military source coming from a helicopter, which is public knowledge. Something else to note is that the YouTube video where the Commons image comes from is clearly edited, specifically at the end with the slow-motion and increased zoom at the end.

So given all of the above, and previous discussions / context, is this photo, ColumbiaFLIR2003.png free-to-use or not? If it is free, should anything be changed to its Commons description to make that more clear? If it isn't free, it probably should be removed from the Commons, and if that happens, I should be able to use this photo or a similar one of the re-entry in the article under free-use, since there would be no freer options available. SpacePod9 (talk) 15:58, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Pinging @Kylesenior, Prosfilaes, LPfi, and Carl Lindberg as commenters in that section and UnderworldCircle as uploader.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 16:11, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I see this was previously discussed a few years back at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Village_pump/Copyright/Archive/2021/07#Footage_taken_by_Netherlands_military_pilot,_using_US_equipment,_on_training_in_US? PascalHD (talk) 19:15, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think my opinion has changed. Any editing of the video was mostly like by US government employees. It may well qualify as a work for hire under U.S. law, making it PD-USGov anyways. I doubt we'd ever know for certain unless a lawsuit was filed and the details of the contracts were spelled out and judged on. To me, this falls into the "theoretical doubt" area, well below the COM:PRP threshold. It's probably fine, and near certain to never find out for sure. I'd vote keep. Carl Lindberg (talk) 20:00, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I doubt that USA military would allow a foreign trainee to retain any copyright over such (very sensitive) images. There must be a clause buried in their contracts where they agree to relinquish any claims to copyright. Ruslik (talk) 20:06, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

I am afraid I don't have anything to add to it. I never got any more details on it and I am not familiar enough with the law. Kylesenior (talk) 08:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

The description and the licensing don't match. The description says it's the product of "two RNLAF (Royal Netherlands Air Force) pilots", while the license says it's "a work prepared by an officer or employee of the United States Government". Either the description needs to be corrected, the license needs to be changed. Fourthords | =Λ= | 12:29, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, here's a quote from the book Bringing Columbia Home: The Untold Story, authored by Michael D. Leinbach (the KSC Launch Director for STS-107) and Jonathan H. Ward, the former I believe is who is narrating here. Pages 158-159, "The pilot of an Apache helicopter, who was returning to Fort Hood from a night training mission when Columbia broke up, recorded a particularly important video. Seeing unusual streaks in the sky ahead of him, the pilot trained his targeting cameras on the smoke trails. Realizing later that he had witnessed Columbia's disintegration, he personally drove the tape to Barksdale and played it for Dave Whittle and our leadership team. The tape itself was classified, but he allowed us to record portions of the video showing the breakup. In the same book, an annotated frame from that recording (which is identical to the below photo from page 1-76 of the Crew Survival Report) is credited as a "NASA photo" (9 pages before p. 139). Presumably the recorded video the NASA team obtained was then made public and ended up on the internet that way. But now I've got a question for @Carl Lindberg, would the annotated photos in the Crew Survival Report qualify for PD-USGov because they were presumably annotated by US Government employees, even if the original classified video came from a foreign crew, presumably Danish or Dutch? SpacePod9 (talk) 23:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Copyright notice Q - Art exhibition catalogues/publications

Question re: copyright notice formalities for published works of art in the US. If a pre-1977 work was published for the first time in a catalogue for an exhibition, does there need to be a separate copyright notice for the individual work, in order for the copyright to have been correctly established? Obviously a copyright marking for the publisher covers most original content in the publication, but would that also the art reproduced in the book?

Specifically I'm thinking about Méret Oppenheim's Object (1936). It was first published in the United States in the Museum of Modern Art's catalogue for the exhibition Fantastic Art, Dada, Surrealism (1936-1937). The catalogue is available online mostly in whole. The book itself has a copyright notice for the Museum of Modern Art trustees from the year it was published, as well as a 2017 copyright notice from their digital upload. But there are no additional copyright markings or rights credits for individual works. Would the overall copyright marking cover the individual works, and if so, how would copyright ownership be established there if MoMA technically claimed the copyright for these individual works?

Thanks! 19h00s (talk) 21:34, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Any takers? 19h00s (talk) 20:41, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Category:UnfoldTheUniverse

Background:

• Files produced by NASA are automatically Public Domain, see Template:PD-USGov-NASA
• NASA organized an art contest: https://go.nasa.gov/unfoldtheuniverse
• The art, related photos, scans etc. produced by artists, who aren't NASA employees were uploaded to "the official Flickr account for NASA's James Webb Space Telescope" with some CC license
• From Flickr the files then were uploaded to Commons, see Category:UnfoldTheUniverse
• It seems that now all hashtag #UnfoldTheUniverse pictures on Flickr are marked with "All rights reserved"

I believe that the images were uploaded with CC license to Flickr due to a mistake, which was later corrected. It is highly unlikely that NASA has legitimately acquired the rights to publish all the art, produced by hundreds of artist for this contest, under a CC license. As such, I believe that all art in Category:UnfoldTheUniverse should be deleted due to a copyright violation.

Just because there was a period of time when the Flickr pages for these images showed a CC license, doesn't mean that these files should be allowed on Commons. —⁠andrybak (talk) 00:01, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Uhh, sorry. My fault. I uploaded the files using Flick2Commons and when I saw these images of drawings and models I also had my doubts about uploading them. If elimination is necessary, go ahead. Astromessier🪐 (talk) 02:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

There was already a discussion about these files last year and I fully agreed they needed to be removed. I updated my bot to ignore them some months ago, I'm surprised to see that these files are still here. vip (talk) 00:26, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Don-vip, do you mean Commons:Deletion requests/File:-JWSTArt and -UnfoldTheUniverse Art - by Cassandra Li (53075839805).jpg or was there some other, wider discussion? —⁠andrybak (talk) 01:17, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes exactly! I thought all files would have been deleted through this DR. vip (talk) 01:20, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I had only nominated the one, and I hadn't done a deeper search on Commons for similar files. The licensing is on this page now, and it doesn't appear to grant the U.S.A. the ability to re-license the work to third parties. As such, images that depict this sort of artwork in a greater-than-de minimis way are going to need to be deleted for failing COM:L in light of PRP. — Red-tailed hawk _(nest) 02:22, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

+1 --Achim55 (talk) 07:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Is there a step to take before nominating possible copyvio for deletion?

I have noticed two files which taken from another site. The uploader has stated such publicly, and the wayback machine confirms the images were on the site before they were uploaded. I wasn't able to find any release of the files on the site, and the files are listed as {{Own}}. There are a couple of possibilities here:

1. The uploader is the owner of the site, and they own the rights to the files.
2. There is an image release somewhere on the site I could not find. The uploader was uploading based on this release and the uploader mistakenly tagged them as their own work during the upload process.
3. The files are not freely available and the uploader has made an error in uploading it.

I am hesitant to nominate the files for deletion since only (3) would require deletion. (1) would require no remedy and (2) only correcting the attribution. I contacted the uploader about the issue but they have not responded and have since made a number of edits. Would it be appropriate to nominate for deletion? I don't believe whether or not the files ought to be deleted, and it seems like it would not be assuming good faith. Is there a different first step to take, or should I drop this entirely? AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 01:57, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@AquitaneHungerForce: It's really hard to answer this in the abstract, with no links to the files in question. No one answering you has a chance to look at the source site and see whether there is any license offered there, nor whether there may be some reason to believe (or doubt) that the uploader is associated with the site. If you want to raise an issue here, why conceal what you are talking about? - Jmabel ! talk 08:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Are you saying that the presenting the evidence to the Village pump would be the next step here? AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 14:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Just start a deletion discussion, that's what they're there for. Present your evidence there. Make sure everyone understands that you are uncertain as to whether the files actually need to go, and that you are starting the discussion in order to gain clarification and further opinions. El Grafo (talk) 15:05, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@AquitaneHungerForce: I'm saying that if you want other people's opinion on how best to proceed, it is a lot better to present us with a tangible case (by linking the files) than an abstraction. - Jmabel ! talk 19:04, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Or, assuming the uploader is still active, you can contact them and ask questions. - Jmabel ! talk 08:31, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

As stated the user is active and I have contact them to ask. 9 days have elapsed since without a response, and with clear activity. AquitaneHungerForce (talk) 14:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Ah, you didn't say "9 days". For all I knew it could have been an hour. Yes, start a DR. Be clear that you are just raising the issue and don't know what the resolution will be, but there are things that need to be addressed. - Jmabel ! talk 19:07, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Please, rev del this file.

To avoid possible COM:DW issue. File:U.S. Ambassador Brink and Howard G. Buffet, an American businessman, former politician, philanthropist, Kyiv, Ukraine on December 16, 2023.jpg Thanks, -- Ooligan (talk) 23:22, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done Abzeronow (talk) 23:41, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

File:2023 11 14 - Yfirlitsmynd yfir varnargarða - fylgiskjal minnisblaðs.png

Hi, I have some doubt about the license of this file as this doesn't seem to be either "acts, regulations, administrative provisions, court rulings". And this is a derivative work of a satellite image. Opinions? Yann (talk) 18:06, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it seems like a com:derivative work. Mhhossein ^talk 04:38, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Possibly restricted?

I am currently working on an article on Wikipedia and was wondering if these files are ok to upload. The description says that they are "Possibly Restricted - Some or all of this material may be restricted by copyright or other intellectual property rights restrictions", but wouldn't the files fall under PD-USGov as the films are taken by US servicemen?

Also, one clip from Reel 12 in particular is also featured here where the film is posted as being public domain (check around 7:26 on Reel 12 and around 0:57 on the other film for comparing the two clips). Alin2808 (talk) 22:05, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

An update since I didn't receive any replies, I've also found this report for the mission which states that the newsreel movies were taken by the the 1st Combat Camera Unit. Alin2808 (talk) 23:49, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Is this image public domain?

Moved from Commons:Help desk

Could the image of Bradley on page 68 of this USGS report be covered by Template:PD-USGov? BhamBoi (talk) 04:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@BhamBoi: my take (though you might want to seek more expert opinion at COM:VP/C) is that it would probably come down to the status of The American Journal of Science Bradley Volume (1960). As a U.S. federal government document, the USGS report is presumably public-domain when handled as a unit, but if the image in question is copyrighted then its inclusion in the document is somewhere in fair use territory (and we can publish the document as a whole despite its containing copyrighted on something along the lines of a de minimis basis). The image as such doesn't become public domain just because it is included in a federal government document. Otherwise, the government could take away anyone's copyright by publishing their work in a federal document. - Jmabel ! talk 05:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

By stating: "Photograph from the USGS Denver Library Photographic Collection, Portraits, in the “Last Name A–B” folder; published in The American Journal of Science Bradley Volume," I'm led to think that it was a USGS file, thus government PD, but later republished in the journal volume.

For reference, a link to the Bradley Volume is here, and the image appears in this article. BhamBoi (talk) 05:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

USGS having it in a collection doesn't mean it was taken by a U.S. government employee. Again, you might want to seek more expert opinion at COM:VP/C. - Jmabel ! talk 06:03, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I will. Thanks! BhamBoi (talk) 06:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Just an update, I have not gotten a response from this board yet but would the image linked above be okay to upload to Commons? BhamBoi (talk) 23:13, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

File:Women Superstars United logo, 2019.png

Hi, This file was undeleted as per this request, but there is a disagreement about its copyright status. There are more requests on COM:UDR#Various professional wrestling logos. More opinions needed. Yann (talk) 08:35, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I renominated this file: Commons:Deletion requests/File:Women Superstars United logo, 2019.png. Yann (talk) 11:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Can I upload a screenshot of a tweet promoting Wiki Loves Monuments which only uses an image from Commons and a message

Hi all

I would like to upload a screenshot of this tweet by UNESCO which encourages people to enter Wiki Loves Monuments, the image used on it is from Commons

• https://twitter.com/UNESCO/status/909810577257713664

I assume there is no issue in doing this? Just want to double check (I wrote this tweet and some others when I worked there)

Thanks

John Cummings (talk) 11:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course, since Twitter may be throwing ads (etc.) onto any given screen I can't swear by what is in your screen shot, but as long as you indicate the source copyright status, and license of each copyrightable element, and you comply with any licensing (e.g. assuming that main image is not PD, there will be some consequence for the licensing of the screenshot as a derivative work), this should be fine. - Jmabel ! talk 23:40, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks very much Jmabel I just wanted to make sure the text wasn't a problem, or there were specific rules for screenshots from social media. John Cummings (talk) 01:40, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

The text there (at least what I saw) is way too generic for copyright. Depending what you get on your screen, we might have some cropping or blurring to do. - Jmabel ! talk 01:42, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Uploading pre-1929 photo with no date

I would like to upload this photo[1] from this webpage[2] of Homer Stryker as a child. The photo is undated; however, since Stryker was born in 1894, the picture was undoubtedly taken before 1929; however, the photo is also not 150 years old. Would this photo be acceptable to upload? Thanks! Wikipedialuva (talk) 11:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this is {{PD-old-assumed-expired}}. Yann (talk) 12:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Yann: Thank you! Wikipedialuva (talk) 13:07, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, not sure where you got 150 from, for most relevant purposes the period is 120 years, and that's clearly passed for this one. - Jmabel ! talk 23:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Swedish FoP

Hi all,

As a representative of Wikimedia Sverige, I've had the opportunity to participate in a public inquiry convened by the Swedish government, to review and propose modernizations of the exceptions and limitations within Swedish copyright law. Such inquiries are the first step of the Swedish legislative process. One of the key areas under review is the freedom of panorama provision, and today, the proposal was handed over to the Minister for Justice. The proposal is available here.

The proposal contains several aspects beneficial to the Wikimedia movement. However, one significant obstacle remains with regards to freedom of panorama (regrettably, I'm not the sole representative involved in the inquiry… :/ ). While we intend to keep advocating to eliminate this obstacle throughout the political process, I'm eager to hear your thoughts, and particularly your arguments that could be employed to continue the fight within the parliament.

The proposal permits the use of all kinds of works permanently placed on or next to public spaces for reproduction through any means, including 3D digitization. It specifically highlights that Wikimedia platforms should be allowed to organize and structure databases of public art, such as the Offentligkonst.se project that Wikimedia Sverige managed.

Nevertheless, the proposal is restricted for some cases of "förvärvssyfte," a Swedish legal term that should be understood as using something to make financial gain. That is, the provision prohibits the reproduction of works permanently placed on or next to public spaces for financial gain, similar to the Danish and Norwegian Freedom of Panorama provisions. Presently, Danish and Norwegian Freedom of Panorama is not accepted on Wikimedia Commons.

The proposal acknowledges that all commercial uses are not excluded, permitting both businesses and private individuals to use these works, even for commercial purposes, as long as financial gain is not the general purpose. Determining the threshold for financial gain is obviously challenging, but the committee report submitted to the government emphasizes that this restriction is vital to adhere to the 3-step test.

Several Swedish lawyers I've consulted with are perplexed by how Wikimedia Commons can allow Belgian public art but not Danish and Norwegian. The Belgian provision replicates the second step of the 3-step test verbatim, which according to these lawyers also should effectively prohibit economic exploitation of such works. One lawyer even saw the Belgian provision, with the wording from the 3-step test, could be more restrictive than restriction for "förvärvssyfte".

I'm keen to hear your views on whether restrictions for "financial gain" are incompatible with Wikimedia Commons and CC BY-SA. If so, what distinguishes such restrictions from reproducing the second step of the 3-step test in the law? And perhaps further, how we can allow FoP works at all, when all exceptions and limitations, at least in EU law, are restricted by the 3 step test?

Any thoughts and input here will be extremely valuable as the process continues. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 14:05, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Thanks for your message. Could you please explain, or link to an explanation about, the 3 steps you mention. Yann (talk) 14:25, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course, I thought I linked it! This is the English Wikipedia article on the 3 step test and here you find EU version. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 14:28, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Eric Luth (WMSE) regarding Belgian FoP, the latest version no longer contains what you said. For proof, see here. You may use Google Translate to translate Article XI.190 (2/1°). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 23:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Basically, the current Belgian FoP wording has removed the three-step test-like wording, making it compatible with free culture and commercial licenses such as CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, CC-zero, and PD. I have some reservation that too much adhering to three-step test may result to Sweden being one-step backward in terms of free appreciation and enjoyment of Swedish public monuments by anyone for any purposes. The Spanish FoP was almost revoked here because of two Court rulings that treated the three-step test as a restriction to commercial reuses of Spanish public monuments. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 09:09, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks @JWilz12345, this is very helpful. Do you have a link to the discussion on Spanish FoP? What I don't really understand in that regard is how the Commons community views the 3 step test in general? I mean, all EU countries are bound by the 3 step test in the Infosoc directive? Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 10:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Eric Luth (WMSE) it is at Commons:Village pump/Copyright/Archive/2023/08#NO-FOP in Spain?. MarcoAurelio gave some insight regarding the Spanish FoP and the Three-Step test issue.

The application of Three-Step Test here is somehow controversial. This is because it can lead to courts ruling that all non-commercial uses are not allowed, directly conflicting COM:Licensing that is anchored on the Definition of Free Cultural Works, in which commercial uses should not be forbidden by law. This free cultural works definition is what essentially supports the mission of Wikimedia Commons of providing freely-licensed content that anyone in the world can be freely reused, not bound for copyright restrictions. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 11:11, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments and for the links @JWilz12345, it is a very interesting read from @MarcoAurelio. I think that Marco Aurelio's wording under commercial use of media here is similar to what the lawyers referred to in their comments on Belgian FoP: that the second step of the 3-step test (especially the version in the InfoSoc directive (art. 5.5)) could be understood as very restrictive when it comes to commercial reuse, whereas the Swedish proposal outlines several ways in which commercial use would be completely legal, even though all commercial uses are not (depending on the purpose).

I am very well aware of Wikimedia Commons mission! But I suppose that my main question here is how to find room, given that all EU countries are bound by the 3-step test, for "enough" commercial use according to CC BY-SA, while still being compatible with the 3-step test? Providing such thoughts from the Commons community would be very valuable in my attempts to broaden the proposal and guarantee, to the extent possible, that the law ends up being compatible with CC BY-SA. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 11:12, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@Eric Luth (WMSE) take note, the law should also comply to two most liberal licenses too: CC-zero and PD. Users may share images under {{CC-zero}} or {{PD-user}}. The law should not restrict any commercial uses that are permitted by these two most liberal free-culture licensing. If not, then the future Swedish FoP becomes incompatible. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 11:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Noted, but what would the difference be? Are there any differences in what commercial uses are allowed under CC BY-SA, CC BY and CC0?

The discussion whether CC0 is compatible with EU law is of course another story… Still, there is no proposal to add an attribution requirement in the exception, and definitely nothing amounting to to SA. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 11:40, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I think the FoP to be proposed should not prohibit the following free uses: post cards, calendars, tourism souvenir items, travel websites or travel portals, stamps, TV and Internet advertisements, commercial vlogs on YouTube or TikTok, and website development (if the websites are commercial; that is, they are supported by advertisments). Of course, unreasonable use is not allowed, just like German FoP's prohibition to alter or edit the image (to the point it no longer resembles the work seen as it is found by the Wikimedia/Flickr/500px/Pexels/Unsplash photographer) and Dutch FoP/Brazilian FoP's prohibition to edit out surrounding elements like the ground and the sky. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for this very concrete list. It helps a lot! But can you clarify how the prohibitions for altering or editing the image restricts commercial use?

In the proposal, it is allowed to use the artworks in any way (including everything you mention) but not for any purpose. Would your view be that everything on this list would need to be allowed freely (edit: that is, for any purpose)? In that case, do you have any thoughts on the compatibility of e.g. TV advertisements and the 3-step test? Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 11:45, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@Eric Luth (WMSE) for both of your questions, I think I may call here three people who have sufficient familiariy on FoP: @Abzeronow, Clindberg, and Rosenzweig: . Anyway, other users should participate here, not just two of us with Nemo and Jeff G.. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 11:49, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for adding them here! I agree, it would be very useful to have a broad view from the community on these issues, for everyone I hope but for me in the legislative process that will follow in Sweden. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 12:10, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

For altering/modifying part, I think such acts damage the integrity of the artwork and may lead to artist filing lawsuit against the reuser. Of course it is more on moral rights but we generally respect restrictions to editing notwithstanding the demands of the free-culture CC licenses, and non-invasive edits like non-substantial cropping are tolerated. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 11:51, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) It's a reference to the w:en:Berne three-step test. The three-step test is problematic (it should never be enshrined into law), but it's also a kind no-op provision because it's required by the InfoSoc directive for all copyright exceptions anyway, and it would probably be harmonized by the CJEU where needed.

Eric, can you clarify whether a definition exists in law for "förvärvssyfte", whether case law exists for it, and how it would be interpreted in cross-border situations? Nemo 14:29, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

But more importantly, if those lawyers think the "förvärvssyfte" restriction is less restrictive than the three-step test, then they should advise to not add such a restriction at all in the law, given it would be redundant with article 5(5) of directive 2001/29/EC. Nemo 14:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

There is no legal definition, but there is a lengthy paragraph in the constitutional commentaries. I can try to translate the relevant paragraphs, would that help?

In general, Swedish legislators tend to want to make sure that implemented laws already fulfill the 3 step test, so that users don't need to know the details of this abstract principle. So the idea from the lawmaker would be that a "translation" of the second step of the 3 step test in a Swedish implementation would be to restrict the exception with this "förvärvssyfte". Do you have any good ideas for arguments against that? My main argument is that it makes it much harder for a global movement, since all national or language based definitions make it much harder to understand laws across borders. Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 15:14, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Has any court enforced the three-step test enshrined into law? If not, could we safely ignore it?   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 11:16, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Jeff G. Yes, Wikimedia Sverige lost a court case in the Supreme Court on Freedom of Panorama, where the supreme court says that courts have to apply the 3 step test when judging individual cases of use based on limitations and exceptions to copyright. But I don't think that any EU country can ignore the 3 step test? I see that Portugal, Poland, Czechia and Croatia, for example, all have implemented 3 step test verbatim in national law, but Wikimedia Commons still accept FoP from these countries. Do you know of any discussions on this here on Commons (that is, the compatibility of 3 step test and commercial FoP?). Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 10:52, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Here's the court case for reference, but unfortunately in Swedish: https://www.domstol.se/hogsta-domstolen/avgoranden/2016/36003/ Eric Luth (WMSE) (talk) 10:53, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@Eric Luth (WMSE): Thanks.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 11:22, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Street art and FoP in Norway

Hello everyone,

I've recently uploaded this image of a mural in Norway. Would you say it is covered by Norwegian FoP, which does not apply "when the work is clearly the main motive"? What about the rest of the images in Norway's street art category?

Thank you for your inputs! Julesvernex2 (talk) 18:46, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I followed your link here hoping to understand what you meant by "motive" (an odd word in this context) and found that the word does not even appear on the linked page. I take it that you mean "when the work is clearly the main subject," a wording that does appear on the page. - Jmabel ! talk 23:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

It seems to me that the mural is the main subject. If you eliminated it, the picture would not be of much interest. - Jmabel ! talk 23:51, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

You're right, apologies. There seems to be a bit of an inconsistency here: the page I linked states "when the work is clearly the main subject", but the {{FoP-Norway}} template says instead "when the work is clearly the main motive". I agree that the latter is a bit odd, motif or subject would be clearer.

When I took the picture, capturing the mural was indeed my main intent. However, I don't agree that the picture would not have much interest without the mural, as I think there's some abstract merit in the composition and play of colours. I'm unsure though if that's enough for FoP to apply. Julesvernex2 (talk) 08:38, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

@Julesvernex2 at best, edit to censor out the mural and upload it as a new file, and you can categorize it at Category:Censored by lack of FOP to show the effect of limited Norwegian FoP for distribution of public art images online under free licensing. The original file has to go. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 08:52, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Understood, I'll do that and start the deletion request process. Julesvernex2 (talk) 09:18, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

It’s a pity for such a nice photo, but probably unavoidable. – I have taken the liberty to update the English wording of {{FoP-Norway}} to use the term “subject”, too; the term “motive” was probably a false friend (in German and probably in other languages, “Motiv” is the normal word for the subject of an artwork).

WW1 Propaganda Posters

I recently came across some references to https://www.ww1propaganda.com/ which seems to be no longer online, but can be accessed through archive.org. I thought that all these posters could be a good addition to Wikimedia Commons. The copyright side of this should also be not a problem since it's all WW1 propaganda posters which should all be in {{PD-old}}.
My question now is if this is consensus for most people here (or if there will be a DR within the first five minutes after being uploded) --D-Kuru (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

If these are European propaganda posters, then the author of the poster would have needed to have died before 1954, and there are definitely cases of German propaganda poster creators living to 1954 and beyond. So death dates of authors has to be checked before uploading here. Abzeronow (talk) 21:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I assume You'd also have to account for the URAA along with the normal term, which I assume probably wouldn't have lapsed yet or whatever when the copyrights were restored by it in a lot of cases. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:48, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

These are all from the 1910s. They are definitely public domain in the US. Abzeronow (talk) 21:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Yup. As Abzeronow indicates, U.S. law is not a factor here, because these were published before 1929. If you can establish an author having died before 1954, that puts you in good stead in most European countries; also, for some countries, anonymous or collective works only get 70 years from publication, so those would be good as well where applicable. - Jmabel ! talk 23:56, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

My bad. I stand corrected. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:36, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, interesting, but they have a proeminent watermark, and the first one is already on Commons, copied from the LoC. They are probably better sources for these posters. Yann (talk) 12:25, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

FOTO'S STUUT

IK ZOU GRAAG IN CONTACT KOMEN MET DEGEEN DIE DE FOTO'S VAN sTUUT IN HET tROPENMUSEUM HEEFT GENOEMD. IK WEET NIET OF HET FOTO'S ZIJN DIE MIJN GROOTVADER, E.H. Stuut heeft gemaakt of een andere Stuut. Ik begrijp dat de mogelijke leverancier geen mail wil ontvangen maar wel wil reageren op een vraag op de site, maar ik heb geen idee hoe dat moet. kan iemand mij helpen? 2A02:A441:E0A7:1:862:7A0E:F977:C21A 19:51, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Google translate from Dutch: I WOULD LIKE TO CONTACT THE WHOSE PHOTOGRAPHS OF STUUT IN THE TROPENMUSEUM. I DON'T KNOW IF THEY ARE PHOTOS THAT MY GRANDFATHER, E.H. Stuut or another Stuut. I understand that the potential supplier does not want to receive emails but does want to respond to a question on the site, but I have no idea how to do that. can anyone help me?

If you are wanting to know about a file stored on Wikimedia Commons, please post a link to the file. If you are asking about files stored on the museum's website, a link to the file on their website would also be useful. From Hill To Shore (talk) 20:33, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

The request seems to be related to these images: Category:Photographs by E.H. Stuut Julesvernex2 (talk) 20:59, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

I believe the OP is the same person who posted from a user account at the HD (reverted by Yann as a test) and at the main VP (in the Jan. 18 §). I recommend that further discussion take place in the latter thread, as it doesn‘t seem to be a copyright issue as such.—Odysseus1479 (talk) 21:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

When Odysseus1479 says "that latter thread" I assume he means COM:VP#photographs E.H. Stuut, overleden 24 november 1931. - Jmabel ! talk 01:13, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Possibly copyrighted image

Hello!File:Felixleeskzz.png is likely copyrighted. Noticed it after it was added to the English Wikipedia. After some reverse image searching, I was able to find the full version of the image (albeit, from Reddit), with a watermark for this company, MBC. I cannot speak Korean, so my search ends there, however I figured it's best to bring it to the attention of admins here. Thanks! Schrödinger's jellyfish (talk) 00:47, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

It is a red carpet photograph, so there will be multiple versions and authors. In this case, the Reddit link you provided (to a gallery of multiple images) includes one of the same moment and angle as uploaded here. I have marked it as a copyvio for speedy deletion but someone may prefer to switch to a regular deletion discussion to cover the slim possibility that this was from a different camera in almost exactly the same position that captured the exact same moment. From Hill To Shore (talk) 02:48, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Source url deleted

The only source url of File:Kenkichi Tomimoto and Shinichi Sasagawa, circa 1917-1918.jpg, File:Kenkichi Tomimoto (right) with unknown, circa 1917.jpg, File:Kenkichi Tomimoto, his family and his mother in front of his workshop, 1918.jpg, File:Kenkichi Tomimoto in front of his house, circa 1918.jpg, File:Kenkichi Tomimoto (left) with unknown, circa 1917.jpg, File:Kenkichi Tomimoto and his family, end of 1917.jpg is cancelled from internet. Can you delete them since they haven't another source now? Nanafuji (talk) 12:52, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I have amended your comment to convert file names to links. From Hill To Shore (talk) 13:10, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

 Comment I have denied deletion, as there is no valid reason for that. Yann (talk) 14:15, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

I see Nanafuji has been blocked. However, for reference of other editors, I have added an archive link to the source from WayBackMachine. All files above came from the same source document. From Hill To Shore (talk) 18:21, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Just because sources go away, does not mean deletion. If we have verified the license, or the license does not depend on the source (such as in this case and most other PD licenses), they are fine. We shouldn't upload files in the first place if keeping them was dependent on their continued existence elsewhere. Carl Lindberg (talk) 19:34, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

History of Hindu–Arabic numerals images are almost certainly copyright violation

The image File:Evolution of Hindu-Arabic numerals.jpg is a very lightly modified version of a diagram from Karl Menninger's book Number Words and Number Symbols (1969), page 418, originally published in German (1934) as Zahlwort und Ziffer. This is a very clear copyright violation, though the author user:Hu741f4 claimed this as their own cc-by-sa licensed work.

A couple other images are almost certainly also copyright violation: File:Numeration-brahmi fr.png is translated into French, and according to the image description got the numeral images from Datta and Singh (1935) History of Hindu Mathematics which according to w:History of Hindu Mathematics and IA is in the public domain (I am not sure if that is accurate; the copyright page of these scans says "all rights reserved"). I can't immediately tell if this is true and the uploader user:Piero remade the image, or if this was also just scanned from Menninger then overwritten with translated labels, but either way this diagram is too closely based on Menninger's diagram to not be a clear-cut derivative work, and it's especially shady that there's no attribution to Menninger. This was then translated back into English as File:The_Brahmi_numeral_system_and_its_descendants.png by user:Tobus. Again Menninger is not credited, and this one has a description page which no longer makes any claims about where the glyph images come from.

It would be nice if someone would redraw an image that is not such a blatant ripoff. The wide use of these images across Wikimedia projects testifies to their importance. –jacobolus (t · wp · wt) 23:54, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

Not obvious to me that there is anything copyrightable there. - Jmabel ! talk 21:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

The precise layout, labels, and content of a diagram are assuredly copyrightable. The generic idea of drawing a tree is not copyrightable. So if you take the raw data for the chart (collection of re-drawn glyph shapes, historical connections between sets of numerals) and then hand it to someone who never looked at the original and ask them to draw a new diagram, what you end up with is going to look substantially different from the original, and should be free and clear. But just directly duplicating someone else's diagram without attribution is (a) very likely copyright infringement, and (b) unethical plagiarism. –jacobolus (t · wp · wt) 08:50, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

No, these are not original enough to get a copyright. These are factual descriptions, and only a few words. Yann (talk) 10:26, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

The 1934 original appears to be here, on page 233 of Zahlwort und Ziffer. Our graphic is pretty clearly a copy (using the same exact glyph drawings) with the Shang numerals added at the top. Our image was copied directly from here (same faded lines on the top box), an article called The Evolution of Mathematics in Ancient China by Frank Swetz, on page 31 of a book called Mathematics: People, Problems, Results edited by Douglas M Campbell and John C. Higgins of Brigham Young University (each article had a different author, dozens of them). It was published in 1984 and has a copyright notice by "Wadsworth, Inc.". The article says If one views a popular schematic of the evolution of numeration and places the Chinese system in the appropriate chronological position, an interesting hypothesis arises, namely that the numeration system commonly used in the modern world had its origins 34 centuries ago in Shang China! (and no further credit that I see). So, the Shang element at the top was an addition by that author, with the rest a direct copy. Unsure if it was (and is) considered a "popular schematic" such that it was commonly copied and considered general property, or not eligible for copyright in the first place, or only because the original book was probably public domain in the United States at the time.

It was obviously copied. But, none of the numerals or labels would have a U.S. copyright. It would come down to "selection and arrangement". They are arranged chronologically, which is not original, and vertically, also not really original either. The placement of the East/West Arabic, bit more likely but extremely thin. The choice of which ones to include, the "selection" part, may have a bit more merit (especially the ones at the bottom). It's not all that many elements though. Certainly the original upload, with an "own work" claim which was clearly a scan, and with no credits or context, is bad. It would be an extremely thin copyright, protecting mostly exact copying, with almost any other variation not being derivative. And it's possible this diagram was routinely copied. Still, it rubs me the wrong way that we have an exact scan from still-copyrighted works, where there is a slight question of copyright, when it would be rather easy to make an original representation showing the same idea, or copy a similar comparison from an out-of-copyright work such as this or here or I'm sure many more (those cite some others). Carl Lindberg (talk) 12:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Please, rev del these 3 files.

To avoid COM:DW issue. 1. File:British Ambassador to the United States hosts the premiere of The Boys in the Boat in Washington, D.C.on December 14, 2023 - 1.jpg 2. File:British Ambassador to the United States hosts the premiere of The Boys in the Boat in Washington, D.C.on December 14, 2023 - 2.jpg 3. File:British Ambassador to the United States hosts the premiere of The Boys in the Boat in Washington, D.C.on December 14, 2023 - 3.jpg Thanks you, -- Ooligan (talk) 07:52, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done Abzeronow (talk) 17:26, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

Popeye cartoons under character copyright?

We have quite a few Popeye cartoons that presumably were not renewed in their own right, but due to Commons:Character copyrights, shouldn't these be under perpetual copyright? Popeye's first appearance was in a 1929 comic, which presumably is PD next year, and his first appearance in film was in a 1933 Betty Boop cartoon which I believe was renewed. Although I doubt his appearance in either matched his appearance and likeness in 1936 and beyond, so I think it's safer to undelete them later than 2025...

Here's the ones I could find that probably need to be assessed based on similarities to previous likenesses of Popeye:

• Popeye the Sailor Meets Sindbad the Sailor (1936)
• Category:Popeye the Sailor Meets Ali Baba's Forty Thieves (1937)
• Gopher Spinach (1954)
• Bride and Gloom (1954) SnowyCinema (talk) 10:53, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

• @SnowyCinema: Yes, please create deletion requests. Thanks, Yann (talk) 09:55, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@Yann: How do you make one to nominate several at a time? SnowyCinema (talk) 10:10, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

@SnowyCinema: Hi, and welcome. Please see Mass deletion request (manual tagging for standard deletion of a mass of files), which links to VisualFileChange AKA VFC (semiautomatic tagging and other operations for 1 or more files).   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 11:25, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

AntiCompositeBot

A message by y AntiCompositeBot advised me to ask here about https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Msc.Can.3_0008.jpg. The image is not in copyright, and I think the information is both complete and consistent, but all help is welcome as the bot sounded like deletion was likely nonetheless. CRolker (talk) 13:38, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@CRolker: It is finally complete 13 months after upload. Please be more careful. The bot does not withdraw posts.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 14:01, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

thanks for the prompt reply! what exactely caused the problem? My guess what that the relevant tag {{PD-Art-100}} was required twice, so I added it. It's very useful to have such bots, but it would be even better if they gave hints as to what the problem was. atb CRolker (talk) 14:05, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@CRolker: Are "valid copyright tag" in special:diff/716218907 and "our basic licensing policy" in special:diff/293048073 not enough?   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 14:48, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

For me, it was not clear; I thought that the {{PD-Art-100}} tag I inserted 18 Dec 2022 would be enough, so at first I was confused what was wrong with it. But again, no offense: you do help the project, and more experienced users than me would probably not have been confused. All well. CRolker (talk) 15:43, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

@CRolker: That insertion was 3h33m after the post in special:diff/716218907.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. ツ _{please ping or talk to me}🇺🇦 03:02, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

help with copyright identification, for Wikisource

confused and new to this, just don't want to get anything wrong.

I got a PDF of The Retreat by Samuel Tuke (1813) from Wellcome Collections and as I am in the process of uploading it I can't figure out the exact license to answer with upon being asked for that information in Step 1 of the Release Rights section. The only information provided by Wellcome Collections is "Works in this archive created by or for The Retreat, York are available under a CC-BY-NC license" which isn't very specific. many thanks in advance. ScooterDooter (talk) 15:47, 22 January 2024 (UTC)

• {{PD-Scan|PD-old-expired}} From Hill To Shore (talk) 16:02, 22 January 2024 (UTC)